SPEAKER_01 0:00

So, Dan, um, you have a funny story about building a cabin.

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Yes. I I don't know if you know this, but uh our family has a river cabin. It's about two hours. Yeah, two hours west of where we live.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

Um, and it's 10 acres on the river. It's beautiful. Right. And uh my two brother-in-laws and myself built it from scratch. No, we did we did everything. I mean, we dug footers, we cut rebars, right? I mean, we electrical plumbing, we did everything. So it it's it's really a special place for the family.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Um, but uh so we would go down Friday afternoons, late, late afternoon, early evening after work, um, and like I mean, camp out. It's pitch tense why we were doing it. There's nothing there, right? Um, and so at the end of the day, you know, after your building, we'd have all the scrap wood. And so we would burn it, right? Kind of keep it clean and burn it and sit around the campfire and you know, have some you know, brown water and great conversation. Great conversation. Um, and so, you know, after a couple adult beverages, we would uh we would want to blow things up. It's when the best ideas happen. It's one of the best things, yes. Um, so there's there's a spray foam, it comes in a can. So after you put a window in, there's a gap between the window and the stud. And so you would fill that in for insulation with spray foam. So we said, hey, let's blow up the spray foam bottle. You know, it's kind of like you know, like, is it gonna be uh uh uh like a spray can or a spray paint or something? So uh fun fact to blow cans up, you put them in lid first because they seal them from the bottom into the fire. So the fire's hot. Lid first fire first.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

We don't condone this on detention.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Fire is hot, coals. And so we put it in, and it's starting to you know shake and get hot, and then it just explodes. And and have you ever seen that spray foam? It literally expands. So so it's it it blows up, and there are thousands of little fireballs, yeah, now 40 or 50 feet up in the air. Yeah. It's like a meteor shower raining down on us. So we run, uh, we run under, we had the floor of the cabin. The cabin's up on stills. We only had the floor up. So we run under there, and all of this, it's like a meteor shower coming down. And now there's all these foam balls burning on the ground. Oh my god. So now we're all outgoing, you know, stamping out all the foam fireballs that we blew up. It was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

It sounds awesome, dude. Well, thank you for sharing. Um and and as chief risk officer, I'm like, huh. We're gonna risk his personal life, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Let's be honest. Life's messy, decisions are complex, and it's not all black and white, but these are the decisions that shape our growth. Welcome to the tension. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

All right, welcome uh tension, listeners to the podcast. This is our first one ever in person, which is amazing. And so we had to have one of our best-looking guests here uh to be here in person. We're super excited about it. So today's tension is about sustaining what matters. And uh, I'm really excited about this because for me, um, I have thought about this and I've lived some life, but not a ton of life. And I've already seen this tension come up where I know what matters, I know what I love, I know what my priorities are. But as the decades go by, sustaining those things actually becomes not only a challenge, you have to change the way in which you do it. And so we have Dan Wolgemouth here, who is going to talk to us about this. And I can say this um Dan is the best when you say, Hey, this is what matters in my life. These are the things that I want to make sure I sustain his priorities. Um, Dan is the best I've ever seen at this, and he's been able to do it decade after decade. And I've gotten to watch that. And so it's just been really good. So, Dan, thanks for being on the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

I feel like lately, man. Joe Rogan. Heck yeah, yeah. Joe Rogan experience.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Well, I don't think we're quite there in our listeners. We might be 1% or less, frankly. Um, well, Dan, you're you're chief risk officer, frankly, for any and all different businesses and things that I'm involved in. And so uh my level of dependence on you and loyalty to you is so high, and you really make everything run. And while that's a big you know, compliment, um, I think the thing that drew me, I mean, we've known each other now for I don't know, 13, 14 years. And uh the thing that drew me into you, to like your presence and who you are and appreciation of you and all that stuff was actually this idea that like you know what matters from health and being an awesome dad to being an awesome husband. Like you're a killer in business. And while we're not gonna talk uh a lot about that uh today, um, I do want to make sure that's known because it's not as if you're not sustaining what matters in business too. Sure. But I think the thing that like I want to talk to you about is like you are the best in shape person I know for your age and maybe any age. Um, you have one of the best marriages I've seen, and your kids adore you. I mean, your kids are in their 20s and they literally want to just go hang out with you. And that's that's like that's rare. I mean, that's like the gold standard for parenting. And people like me, like if I could have those three things, like that is what matters to me. And somehow you've sustained it throughout. And so um, you know, for for the podcast, we want to start and we want to go through this tension by saying, like, when's the first time you even saw that this was a tension? And I want to just kind of take you back, whether it's health or parenting, kind of like keeping what matters in your personal life, like actually sustaining those things.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Um, and then we'll go into like, okay, once you saw was that, like, how did you how did you choose to accept that? Because that's a hard thing to be like, I can't solve this. I mean, that's what tension is, right? It's it's attention to manage, it's not something to solve. And then I think it's gonna be really interesting. I know for me, I'll be taking notes too, is like, so how are you managing it? Um in that third section. And so um, if you want to start, you know, when did you first notice and like see that this tension exists of actually sustaining things that matter didn't just happen?

SPEAKER_04 6:13

Yeah, it uh a funny story. So back when I was a financial advisor, I had a client that was a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

And so I would typically meet her at her office after she was done seeing patients. So I got there early one day and I was sitting in her waiting room and um, and there was a scale there. And so I was like, I'll just jump on the scale and see where old days at.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

You had a suit on. So that's an extra three or four pounds. That's what I tell myself.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

Yeah, I had the big shoes on. Yeah, I did have a suit because that's day days we we were all suited up. Um and and so, you know, it was one of the the medical scales with the the balance scale, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, you know you're gonna get it accurate.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

So so you have the the big block at the bottom. Yes, and you they move over in 50 pound increments, and then you have the smaller slide scale. Okay, and so in your head, you're like, Oh, I think I weigh X. Right. So you move the big block over and then you start sliding the scale, and it's just pinned. And I slide the scale over more, the little one, the slider, and it's still pinned. I'm like, oh, these shoes are extra heavy today. Yes. And um, so I ended up having to move the big block over one more, and that's a big moment, the big block movement, the big block movement. Yes, it's like that's another 50 pounds, right? So um it's a it was a realization. I was like, wow, um, I'm a little huskier than I thought back in my day. We called it husky, right? Sure. Yeah. Uh I was a little huskier than I thought I was. Yeah. Uh and so it was a realization. It's it's it's almost kind of like, you know, you have this image of yourself in your head of the way you look, the way you feel, the way, you know, your body shape is. And then you see a picture of yourself, you're like, that's not the same person. Well, that scale was my picture.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

And uh, and so I went went, you know, did the meeting, and and I think uh on the way home, you know, I I I was telling Edie, I was like, I'm a little bigger than I thought I was. What did your wife say? What did she say back? You are beautiful and perfect, right? Just the way you are. I know she would say uh yeah, yes, you are accurate. No. Um so so that's the first point from a health standpoint, and that was young, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

So what because we have uh I think the the the bulk of the listeners are people that um they're actually listening because they are maybe younger, maybe than their 20s, 30s, whatever it may be. So, like what age were you, the scale moment? Probably my mid-20s. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

Okay. Uh I think I had uh Bonnie, who's my oldest, who's 26, almost 27. She'll be 27 in uh in about three weeks. And uh so she was she was young, baby. And I think on the way home, I stopped and bought a jogging stroller. Really? Yeah, it was it was that kind of uh moment. Yeah. Uh I've got to do something. I didn't think I was that big. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

So you you had always known um health, we're we're kind of choosing this one that that mattered to you. And that was for you, at least on the health side, like where you realize that sustaining this is actually a legitimate tension. It's not just gonna every day you're just gonna work out.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

Yeah, I'm a young guy, my mid-20s. You you feel like, you know, you still feel good. Yeah. But you know, that that that scale that became the picture was not what I the picture you had in your head, at least what what I had in my head. Yeah. And um uh it was funny that the kids, the kids will see pictures, old pictures of me around that time. Sure. And and Edie say, Oh, that was fat dad. Fat dad was so fun. Fat dad ate dessert, and he was so fun. I could actually see Edie saying that.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yes. Um, so so let's actually stay on the health one here. Sure. Because I do want to go to like uh your marriage and then your parenting, my goodness, there's just so many um ways in which you've sustained those, and those matter a lot to you, but to stay on this health one. So that was your first time to see the tension of sustaining, frankly, your health, and that mattered to you. Um, so as you then had to accept the truth, you just went somewhere with like a jogging stroller, like um, like was it kind of a um because I I've I've actually kind of had to live in this same uh tension before too. Yeah, and it was it was in my 20s as well. But like, what was your like, I have to accept that the only way is to manage this?

SPEAKER_04 10:32

Like, uh uh, you know, uh uh a new dad uh just had Bonnie. She was she was young, um, still growing in my relationship with my wife. We were married four years before we had kids, so we still had that, but still figuring that out, still um uh trying to just get my career up and going because we got married. I was uh uh junior in my wife's overachiever. She finished school much earlier than I did. She said I was on the five-year plan. And uh, so uh so we got married my junior year in school. So, you know, I was still trying to get my business going as a financial advisor. So there was managing that piece, so much stuff. And you know, starting out in that career, you just you gotta grind.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

It's gotta grind, and it's there's mental, emotional, nothing you feel like doing is working out.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

I'll just yeah, you come home and you may have just had dialed 150 calls because back in the day, especially back then. That's what we did.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

It's like a yellow book.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

Yes. That we hit we had we had the cards and we just rip through leads and thank god it's not that way. Yes, stories about that later. Next tension podcast. All right. Um, and and so you know, you you focus on the task at hand, and those other things start getting in the peripheral. For me, that was the health piece. And so the the tension, the management.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Sorry. So, like you're saying that because of job, because of obviously your marriage, because of a new kid, it it actually you still knew it mattered, but effectively you're gonna have to change the way in which you sustain that because it wasn't working.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

The new babies, not sleep, you know, babies don't sleep very often. You're tired, the calendar's on the same. I mean, that that was a big change. I mean, you remember the first one. Oh my goodness. It rocks your world. You just don't get up and go anywhere. That's right. You just have this extra person that you now are responsible for.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

They can wake up at any time.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

At any time. So you you just you don't feel like doing anything but getting every bit of sleep you can manage when you can manage it. Uh, so these other things become uh not even secondary, almost tertiary.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

So you so you more or less accept the fact that this is like unless you're not gonna have a strong marriage, unless you're not gonna build um, you know, your your career the way you want to, unless you're gonna be an absent uh dad, like those weren't you weren't gonna do them. And yet this one was still something that mattered to you. And so like you just accepted the truth that this is my new life. So if you could walk through, because there's a lot of people that are listening that maybe even aren't married yet. Maybe maybe they never will be, and that's great too. But like um, they're gonna have their own priorities come up, they're gonna have their own things that matter, and it's just it's there's so many things going on. How do you prioritize? And so I think like for you, like, how did you for this one like what were the practical changes out there to someone listening of like how you managed it? Because like I even remember for me, this one, uh, I remember having two big moments. The first is when I started uh my first job, and they said, you know, you've probably heard about this in college, but here, and this was a big consulting firm, yeah, they're like, Hey, it's the freshman 15. Yeah. Okay, everyone gains 15 pounds because you travel on flights and all those things. And I remember that was like a whoa, whoa, I'm seeing this. Like, I gotta really figure out if like I accept that's true as attention or if I'm gonna fight it or, you know, just like live in, you know, some some other reality. And then I remember the second was when I had my first kid. Right. I remember someone telling me the coolest thing you could ever do is have a suit because suits are just not forgiven. Uh a pair of stretchy jeans.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

That button gets tighter and tighter down.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

It'll fly off if it really is too tight. It does. And I remember them saying, just keep, even if they go out of style, keep the pants. Yeah. For this, whatever suit you have, whatever you have that first kid. And then every year, try those babies on. Yeah. And if they still, you know, can button without forgiveness. Um, that is your ultimate W for the decades to come. And those are like my two big moments. And I literally like have those pair, and these things are pleated. They got cuffs at the bottom. Yeah. I mean, these are so wide, you don't even know if I have a leg, you know.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

And uh the pleats were in, the pleats and cuffs, man.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I'll never wear it uh again, but I do put it on once a year, and I'm like, okay, and I'm happy to report. I've actually I've it stayed. I've never congratulations. It's a big deal. That's a big deal. But like, there's so much management there. Yeah. But but okay, fine, Travis, you're 37. Like, Dan, you've been doing this for a couple of decades longer than me. How do I how are you managing this matters health? How do you manage it? Yeah, it's you have to be flexible.

SPEAKER_04 15:01

Okay. Right. Um, you have different you're you you have different seasons of your life. Yeah. And so being flexible is probably the best way to manage it. So, for instance, when I started running, I did not want to come home after Edie had been home all day with the baby. Change clones, like, I'm out for an hour. Yeah. Right. That wasn't gonna work. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

So what I do, I because those matter, and that's those mattered, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:24

Right. Um, you know, I may not have been married very long if I, you know, did that. So I'd put Bonnie in the stroller and we'd be gone. So now she's happy, she's in a stroller, she's hanging out with dad. My wife has a break of an hour. She's like, you go run as long as you want, you know. Um, and and so that was the way that I managed that that season. And then when there were two, uh, that wasn't gonna work because I didn't want to run with two. That's that's right. I'd be in great workout, but um, you know, so fun. Not so fun. Uh so you know, I would I would exercise or do what I do after I put the kids down. At night. At night. And sometimes I wouldn't go run until like 30 or 9. Wow. But that's how I managed it. Right. The kids were down. My wife had her time to go do what she needed to do by herself because she was, she might have been home or whatever, dealing with the kids all day. And um, and and I could still maintain that health piece that I wanted to without disrupting the family. Cause I don't think they're mutually exclusive. That's money. Nothing in life is mutually exclusive. Yeah. Everything is is um everything is tied together. Family, personal. You know, that's why the whole thing of work-life balance. I I don't I uh I I I don't necessarily subscribe to it. The concept is the concept is the concept is, but but it's just not how a human actually lives. Yeah, because you you don't shut it off. Can't you don't, and you just like you when you're at work, you don't shut off your family.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

You know, you're because for me, I work for my family. Right. And that's the that's a lot of big my motivation. Yeah. Um, and so as kids kept coming, because we had five, I was gonna come and kept coming and coming and coming. Five kids is a lot. Um, I was like, there's no way, because then I'm gonna be beat after coming home and you know, doing homework and bathing.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

By the time you get to 9 p.m., I only have three. It's like I am still shocked, people don't have a parade for me. I'm like to go to bed. Like, where's where's the parade? I did it today. I can't believe I'm getting in bed right now and this is done. Yeah, you know, it's harder and harder and harder.

SPEAKER_04 17:30

It's harder and harder. So, what I do, I got up at four o'clock.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

That's so that's when I started getting up early. Kids are asleep, wife's asleep. I can go do my thing at the gym or go run. I was still running back then.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:43

Um, and so it wasn't taking any time away from them.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

Um, it wasn't taking time away from my professional work. Yeah. You know, because some people leave in the middle of the day and go to a workout. Sure. Well, I didn't have that luxury. Yeah. Right. Um, so being flexible in that season of life, because your your life has you have different seasons, no matter whether you're 20, 25, 35, 45, 50, 65, whatever, you're going to be in a different season. Yeah. And every season's different. Yeah. And so having the being flexible and having the grace on yourself is the best way to manage that tension.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Well, I I hope, I hope you're listening out there because like um he he's lived this for decades. And and I think that that idea of being flexible, I think that's actually one of the hardest parts to me about like like actually sustaining, because sustaining is like you have to just keep going. I love the word sustaining. Yeah. Because it it doesn't give any um, it doesn't feel very positive. It's just you're just made, it's almost like well, it's like you're grinding your way through it.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

Managing attention. It is. You're you're you're you're resting your life. Managing that that that friction point. Attention is a it can be a friction point, right? And so that's not going to go away. Like I knew I've got five kids, they're not going away. And you can't eventually they will. Yeah. But then it'll look different. But it looks different.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I think the the idea of flexibility, I really like that because, like you said, and and my takeaway so far is even for myself, frankly, is I can picture, at least in the life I've lived, some different seasons in how I've had to change it.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Um, and I am hearing from you, hey, that's not gonna stop. Like you to keep managing this, this uh health tension, we'll call it, and keeping that like sustained, you have to look at it and say, if I'm going backwards, the answer isn't a pity party and it's not possible and all of those things. It's I must be flexible and change. Yeah. So like, what do you say to the people out there? Because it is, it does seem like uh American culture for us to be like uh almost okay when someone says, Oh, yeah, but I mean, I got the young kid. And I was like, Oh, yeah, then it it makes sense for you to not be healthy. Yeah. And and that's almost like I would say more of the common response. I frankly, I think I do that. And part of it is, I think, beautiful because we want to empathize and life's busy and all that. Yeah. And I do want to push back to it because it is kind of a both end, want to be empathetic and all that. I know what you mean, but also aren't we supposed to spur each other on to the best versions of ourselves? Health being one. Like, what do you what do you say to that person that actually is almost not accepted the fact that it's attention they actually can still win by managing?

SPEAKER_04 20:13

Well, I mean, right, the title is sustaining what matters. So does health matter?

SPEAKER_01 20:18

That's that's that's that's the do you even that's really that's the first question.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

Right. Is is it is it a priority? Does it really matter to you? Yeah. Um to me it did because I had that I had that wake-up call, that picture on the scale was my picture. And so at that point, it flipped in me. I was like, I I don't want to be one big block over. I want to I want that big block to be back down.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

Um, you know, so so you know, does it matter if it my my wife is very wise, as you know, and and she always says, people do what they want to do. Right. I mean, and and and internally they justify it.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

So you had brought the example of well, I have a kid. So and I don't want to go as far as it is justifiable. We both live that life, right? Um, but uh you do what people end up doing what they want to do. So so if that priority matters to you, you will figure out a way to manage it, yeah, and and sustain it. Um so that's you know, it's just uh what is the priority? Yeah, and is it enough for you to uh to manage that tension and be flexible in that season of life and be okay knowing the season?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

And be okay looks different.

SPEAKER_04 21:40

It does, right? And that's why I was saying to have then the grace on yourself to understand hey, I may not have two hours to go to the gym like I did when I was in in college. Totally. I've got a 45 minute block. I got to figure out how to make that work. Yeah. And being flexible and adjusting and doing those things. So good, man. Um so that that's you know, if it matters. You will find a way.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yeah. Ooh, hot quote.

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Hot quote.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Um, yeah, I think I think a couple of things that come to my mind too. Um, because I do think that's so good, is like, sure, you can see this tension, but I don't think you can accept the tension of sustaining what matters if you haven't. I love what you said, then admitted, no, no, no, this is what matters, and I accept that it's going to be harder.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Oh, that's so good. Yeah. And it reminds me, I don't know who it was. So, so if you're a listener out there and you did write this book, I want to give you credit. I just forgot who you are. I'm so sorry. But there's this guy that talked about combining your Fs. And what he talked about is like faith, fitness, family, right? Yeah, fun, whatever it may be. And his whole theory that was so interesting, and it's actually pretty relevant to this tension is um if you can look at your 30-minute or one hour gaps in a day and have as many of those things going on uh interchangeably, back to this whole there's no work-life balance, uh, like you were saying, kind of true, but like harmonize as many of those. So if you can, instead of uh get family time that is sitting in the couch and hanging, can you do a family walk? Because you got fitness, family, right? Right. Um, can you uh do business with maybe some of your friends? So you get a lot of buildup and friends, but you also are able to have some fun with them and maybe it can help your finances. Right. Right. So like I just think this whole notion and that is stuck with me for years, is like, is this 30 minute, is this hour gap? Am I doing just one of those? Right. Sure. Uh, where I'm just like just trying to do my career and just trying to do this. And some of those hours, the answer is yes. Like there, there's time where like Jack and I just need a date night to just hang and we're gonna do anything else. And that's back to the grace. Yeah. I think that that was really helpful. But I do feel like um sustaining is almost getting into the regimen of either combining as many of those as you can into that same segment. Or I think what you said, what I want you to talk about a little bit more is also knowing where are your gaps and how long are those gaps. How did you figure out how to manage that? Because you just said 45 minutes at this time. Like, how'd you get there? Because a lot of people just don't know where to start.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Yeah, um I think it's prioritizing the things first. Yep. Right. Making sure here's the priority, here's what, here's what, if you say what matters the most, here's what I'm gonna spend the most of my time on.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah, does your calendar actually reflect that?

SPEAKER_04 24:17

Does your calendar reflect that? Right. Big, I'm a big calendar guy. You know, you fill your calendar up with the priorities first. And then you start filling in the thing. I mean, we've all seen the uh, you know, the example of the pebbles in the in the jar, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:33

You put the big pebbles in first, and you've got all these gaps, and you can't figure out how to get the little pebbles in, you put the little pebbles in first, and right. So it it's it's managing the priorities within your time constraint. Yeah. Um, you know, uh having five kids, we had a ton of time constraints. I just weekends were nuts, right? As as they're all doing their own activities. I remember, I remember one weekend, it was this is one day. We had Annie had a swim meet, so she had prelims in the morning. Bubba had two football games, so we we we go to swim meet, Bubba's in his. Right? I know two football games, and um and so Annie had a swim meet, prelims in the morning, Bubba had two games. So we go over one, we go swimming, we go to one football game, um, we come back, we go to another football game, we come back for finals. Bonnie had prom that night. Um, so that was like every weekend for us. Wow. And and so that was the priority. So if I didn't get a run or a workout in that weekend, that's great. Yeah, it is what it is, right? But that was the priority for the for the day or for the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Because you couldn't have the football game get rescheduled to get the run. Right. But I but I think I mean, yeah, I mean that that sounds silly, but it is so true of like if it is a priority and in the end you would put that football game over even your health for that day, you're still gonna do it. I think the the issue becomes then like, oh, okay, cool. Back to justification. Yeah. Then I'm good. Yeah, but what'd you do the next day? Right?

SPEAKER_04 26:10

Well, yes. Yes. Then, you know, next day we that was a Saturday, went to church. I came home, I went for a run in between church and lunch.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Boom.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Um, so it's back to the calendarization uh of things, putting putting the priorities down first. Yeah. Uh whether that be vacations, those they go on first, which I'm not good at. That's that's attention I have to manage.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

We should do a whole thing of attention of working versus vacations, and then just talk to you about taking more. Yeah. Um, my wife would love that. Hey, Edie, I I said it's trying. Um so so let's go like um uh I want I want to go marriage for a second. Yeah, you know, you and Edie have this wonderful marriage. How many years?

SPEAKER_04 26:55

31 in a week and a half.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Amazing. Yeah. Uh so 31.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

And I remember that, Edie, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Heck yeah. Yeah, I mean, but it's not surprising to me because um, yeah, like I would go as far as saying, especially for the amount of years, like people go through like the honeymoon, a couple of years, whatever it is. But 31 years in, I would use the word that you adore her. And I think that that's beautiful. Um, and I think you frankly, to your point before, I know that even like randomly when you talk about her in business conversations because life isn't shut off and I don't do this or that. Like everything's yeah, nuanced, right? And intertwined. Like, so so that obviously mattered to you, kind of chief among uh maybe everything in some ways outside of faith. But like I'm curious for you, um, what are some of the same practicalities? Like, when did you see that the tension of like sustaining marriage in the place you wanted to? Because it clearly mattered to you. Like, when did you see that was hard? Like, did was there a moment? Was there a story you're like it was this year, or is this time? I was like, oop, either I screwed up or I wasn't giving I wasn't actually sustaining it the way I wanted to. And like, then what did you do to change that for all the people up there that want an awesome marriage 31 years later?

SPEAKER_04 28:05

It um I have a story, it's it's funny, not funny, one of those funny, not funny stories. Um so I was working a lot. Um, and and the only thing that I would say that that in our marriage that we have had a disagreement over, I won't go as far as a fight, but a disagreement would be the amount of time that I I take off from work. And um which we all take her side, but yeah, keep going. Yes, I know. And uh she's like, hey, um, you know, with the kids' schedules, summer is just as bad as during the school. The activities just don't stop for sure. Right. And so she wanted to go on uh on a vacation. She was like, I want four or five days.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

What year are we like what year are we?

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Oh goodness, this is probably 10 years. No, I was I'm trying to think, maybe about 12 into the marriage. Um, no, about 12 years ago. Oh, oh about 12 years ago. Yeah, 19th year of marriage. Yeah, okay, and um and she's like, Can you take off? And I'm like, let me see. I was like, I can't. Now, could I? Probably yes. But I said, I I I can't. And she took the kids and her mom and went on vacation without me. No way. Went up to the mountains in North Carolina, Lake Junaluska. Uh I kind of love that response by her. Oh, she's yeah, she's you can't take off, huh? See, uh, I'm out. Like I am go. This is the this these are the five days that work for the kids' schedules. This is it. Right, we're out. Sure. And um, and I just was like, it was a long week. I'd go home and my family's not there. Oh, it made me feel like crap. She calls it left behind. She's like, That old book series that was left behind.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Why is all the clothes everywhere?

SPEAKER_04 29:54

She's like, you better take off because I'm gonna you're gonna be LB, which is left behind.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Um, but like I mean, so you came home from it, like like because yes, work mattered to you, but then the kids were more important. Like, was that a pretty sucky feeling?

SPEAKER_04 30:10

It was a horrible feeling because I prioritized work over my family. And um, and that was just like I went home and I'm heating up chicken nuggies in the oven. Yeah. Um it just was not a good, it just was not good. Yeah. Um I prioritized something over, I prioritize prioritize something over something else that shouldn't have been a priority at time. Yeah, you in time.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Clear it outline your priorities in an order, which we all have to do, and you disobeyed your own internal rules. Yes, which I think is its own thing that I just wish people would realize. Like some of the angst and anxiety and things maybe you're feeling is either you haven't defined your priorities or you defied your rules that you set in your priorities and it doesn't feel good. And you need to need to talk through that and you need to make changes because it will never feel good without that. So, how did you make it good?

SPEAKER_04 30:57

Um, I I did not want to ever feel like that again, or like I my family's out having a fun vacation without me. Um, and I'm still working on that. That is, I mean, you want to talk about tension to manage, that is still something that you're never gonna solve the problem. Yeah, that's that's still something that I have to work through. Yeah. Um, that is still attention. What are you doing to manage it today? Like what's your effort? Uh not good enough. Um, you know, thank you for being honest. Yeah. Um, you know, I I I have been trying to find ways to to still do some pockets of work while I'm on, you know, not totally try to disconnect. Um, I'm just a guy that I have a problem fully disconnecting. And so, you know, if um we were in Colorado last year skiing, yeah. And so the time zone difference actually helped I'm in the East Coast. So I was able to get up early, do work, and then we went skiing all day. And I did some work in the in, you know, early evening, and then we played games and cards and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

So you know, what I said earlier, like these things aren't mutually exclusive. And and and sometimes, yes, you have to disconnect fully, and sometimes you might be a season of life where you cannot.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

But trying to manage ways to continue to um sustain, sustain, sustain a professional uh experience, you know, professional life with the personal life, with with health and all those things, you know, those things that that matter are priority to you. Yeah. It's um, you know, so finding again being flexible, yeah, and finding ways to tot.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah, you know, I'm so glad you said that because that what I'm about to say maybe is super controversial. Um, and if you're a listener and you're like, I just disagree, uh, totally okay. Because it actually came from a mentor of mine. So I'll blame, I'll blame him. Uh, that's you know, 30 years ahead of me and has amazing business, amazing uh marriage, and amazing kids and grandkids. Yeah. And I asked him one day, I said, gosh, you built one of the most successful businesses in American history. Uh, and he'll be on this podcast this year. Um, so I'll save the name. But like I just asked him, I said, So, like, how? Because, like, did you ever take a vacation? Like, I don't know, how did you do this? Like, other than Michael Dell, you're like the guy in America. And it was so interesting sitting with him because he says, Travis, you have to throw away what American culture, especially Christian American culture, because he's in that uh same kind of value set with me, sure, says to you about all of this. I said, What do you mean? He goes, Did you know that when I go on a vacation with my family, if I don't check in for the first couple hours of that, that I actually can't be present with them after? Yeah. And I've had people say, Well, then, so it's a you're a workaholic. You can't this, you can't that. And and I used to for like a decade say, You're right. Okay, so then I'll just not do it. And what did I find myself doing? Thinking about it, right? Even though I didn't have my phone out and I was still present with them, but I wasn't present.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Because I actually really care. That matters to me, the business success, but also getting things out of my mind helps as well. Now, I'm not here to say that there isn't workaholism and I don't promote that. Sure. Um, and I do think that there are some people that actually need to just not, yeah. Um, I mean, my goodness. But but but I think that's the um that's the normal cultural response is yeah, um, you go to you to vacation, especially Christian culture in America, you don't do any work. And if you didn't do any work, you're terrible and you're working. You're bad. Right. Yeah. And you're a bad father, a bad husband. Yeah. And so maybe there's only 20% of us that are this way, but he gave me freedom to say, no, no, no. Like it could be you're this way. Still watch it. Don't use that as a justification to just have a workaholist, you know, uh mindset. And you could be different because you have a different wiring in the way you're trying to build something, do something. So I just appreciate you saying that because I don't think, again, the answer of managing the tension is all or nothing. And I think a lot of it is also take all the general advice, even general advice we give today, yeah, you have to customize it to you, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Yes. Yeah. I mean, all or nothing to me, when someone says all or nothing, what that says is that there's no ability to manage it.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Come on.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

Right. Because when you say you're either on or you're off, you're black, you're white.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Well, you can't there's no management there. That's good. You're actually treating it like a problem, it's solvable by just shutting it down.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Shutting it down. So you're almost ignoring it. Wow. Instead of actually understanding it, recognizing it, seeing it, managing it. And so that's I totally agree. And I can't wait to see who you have on. Sounds like it's Elon Musk. It's built, it's it's Michael Diff. Yeah, it's it's all right.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

We just want listeners to come back, come back, yes.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

Um, so I can't wait to I will come back to that one. Um, but yeah, so so when you say I'm just gonna not do it, there's nothing to that, you're not managing it and you're ignoring it. Yeah, and so ignoring it doesn't make it better.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

And it's and it's it's not sustaining, it's giving up. Yes, yeah, I think it's giving up. Yeah, and that's what I think is so hard is again modern culture, we have to watch it because this pursuit of the American dream andor the pursuit of happiness is so misleading. Yeah. Because life is not that, and the people that have what you claim is the American dream. And I've met these people that have quite the American dream, yeah, are some of the most unhappy people there are because they probably didn't sustain anything that matters other than that thing.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

That's not a win. Yeah, but I also see people, it's like, well, I'm just gonna uh put all of my eggs into the kids' basket. Well, what's that gonna be to the marriage whenever they get out of the house?

SPEAKER_04 36:35

How many times do you see marriages fall apart when the kids are out because the the couple are just pouring all the energy into the kids?

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Which they thought was beautiful. Cultural total.

SPEAKER_04 36:44

I can't wait till my kids get out. I keep counting the days. Just me and Edie. Well, I mean, but that's because I love you kids.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

You focused on it's it's it's sustaining what matters with an S. Yeah. It's not all or nothing, it's not one thing, but it is a priority list. And you still have to put those. We're not gonna give anyone a cop out to be like, okay, cool, then I don't have to do that. But like, yeah, I I know for me, even like I'll have to remind my daughters, it's good to miss daddy. Yeah. The art of missing someone, it's not success to spend every wake minute and second. Sometimes separation and I miss you is the most beautiful thing a relationship can have, especially one that you want to sustain for the rest of your life. And again, that's like super against you understand American culture.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

How much you love that person that you didn't see them for 24 hours. And you're like, Yeah, but you're also proving right they're not your idol.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Yeah, they're not your identity. That's not the only thing. And I think that's also helpful for them to know, like they've got a different part of life that they're trying to sustain what matters as well. And I just I don't know, I just again think that all the last 10 minutes has probably been very controversial, but I think my my um my point of saying is just don't fall into what everyone tells you is success, and then you're at home feeling like it's not successful, right? I think everybody has to define their own success. Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

I mean, that's I don't think that's anything new.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Your priorities and well, that's interesting because it's like it's the priorities you have to you have to define. Maybe part of managing it now that we're getting there is like if you if you if you haven't done the priorities, you're never gonna manage it because you never saw it right and you never accepted it. Right. But if we're getting to management, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Like your own success. Because you you had a bunch of dads around you, you had a bunch of business people around you, you had a bunch of people that were made around you over the last 30 years. Like, how did you find your own? Like, is there is there anything practical you could tell the the listeners how you found that?

SPEAKER_04 38:30

The the the definition for me of success is is raising a family that is successful in their own right. Like that that was my my goal. That's it, right? And and the center of that is God. Right. We had a rule on Sundays. Don't get up and ask me if we're going to church. Yeah. Come on. The answer is yes. There's there were two reasons we didn't go to church. Matters. It we were either on vacation or someone was sick. That was it. Don't ask me. Come on. Because you know what the answer is. Yeah. And so having a Christ-centered family uh is the key to everything. So success point number one.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

That was the Wogram who's success point number one.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

Number one. Yep. Right. I still pray you defined it. Pray every day with my wife in the morning before I leave. I was here today. I called her on the way back from the gym.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:22

And we prayed in the car. And that's sustaining. And that's sustaining. Um, and and so putting Christ in the center of our family, um, raising kids that are productive, Christ-centered themselves. Like my kids are awesome. Yeah. I love them. They are, they are every single one of them. All five are absolutely so unique. It's incredible to see. You can have five different five people still, half me, half my wife, and so different. Um, and all just just beautiful people inside and out. I just so proud of them for what they have turned into be. Um, and then, you know, my marriage is is strong. I love my wife, but we keep Christ in the center of it. And that's the key for us. Yeah. Uh, and then then comes the professional piece, right? Um, making sure that I am doing what I need to be doing on the professional front and adding value to the companies that I serve into. Yeah. Um but but doing that because of the family.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah. Well, I think that's so good. And we're gonna have to wrap up. So I wanna I want to ask one more question to you. But um I think if you're listening, that is a man that uh clearly, Dan, you just listed out your priorities, boom. Yeah, and then you're able to define what success looks like. And I think that's what's so key is like, so that's the Wolgamoose, you know, uh definition of this. Find your own. Hopefully you learned how to do that. But Dan, um, this idea of managing this tension, of sustaining what matters, uh, this has been amazing. I know I've I've I have notes, I have things that even at my age, I'm like thinking about in the decades to come. But if you had one last call to action to the people out there that are like, okay, fine, I see this is attention. I'm starting to accept it. I want to manage it the rest of my life. What's your final call to them?

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Uh the the final thing that I can in my 53 years of living um and raising a successful family and spouse and and all these things and having a a good professional career is uh being cognizant and recognize what season of life you're in. And the tension, managing that tension will look different in each one of those seasons. Whether you're in your mid-20s, you're there's always going to be something to manage. Yeah. That's just life. Yeah. Life is a tension at times, right? And so understanding what season of life you're in, having the flexibility to manage whatever your tension is at that point in time. Maybe you're a newly married spouse and you're trying to figure out how to live life with this new person, right? And you're you're maybe through the honeymoon period, and there's those things that are like, I'm not sure, you know. Understanding that, defining the priorities in that season, priorities shift sometimes. You have a kid, different season. Different season. You have two, three, four, five kids, lots of different seasons. Um, but but just be flexible, have grace on yourself, understand what season of life you're in, recognizing what matters in that uh in that season.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Amazing. Amazing. Well, Dan, thank you for being on. Um goodness gracious, have I learned a lot. And thank you for listening. I thought this was a great tension, and we'll see you soon.